tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post6556954097254540277..comments2024-03-18T16:22:10.302-04:00Comments on Urban kchoze: Neo-traditional urbanism: focusing on process or outcome?simval84http://www.blogger.com/profile/10615053214354191224noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post-74161335441920304212015-05-11T08:43:45.378-04:002015-05-11T08:43:45.378-04:00It kind of makes sense until you think about it. A...It kind of makes sense until you think about it. Also, it kind of makes sense when you're going from empty field to built-out suburb: the rate of change slows drastically once given patch of suburb and its immediate surroundings get built out. But it never stops entirely, because people themselves get older, have children, etc.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post-24191514985053104032015-05-10T23:57:52.502-04:002015-05-10T23:57:52.502-04:00The idea that neighborhood should reach a "fi...The idea that neighborhood should reach a "final", harmonious state is indeed a commonality between the two approaches. In my view, there is an implicit message of such a method that says "my sense of aesthetics matters more than your ability to find an affordable housing option where you want to live", which I highly disagree with.simval84https://www.blogger.com/profile/10615053214354191224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post-41509646704815148022015-05-10T09:38:52.800-04:002015-05-10T09:38:52.800-04:00I think there's also an economic and historic ...I think there's also an economic and historic logic to the American planning system. It was well-adapted for the problems of America, namely growing a very large and empty country very rapidly, and then growing cities very rapidly outward as they rapidly suburbanized due to improvements in transportation (rail initially, and then cars). I also think that it's outlived its usefulness, and indeed there is one incredibly harmful assumption lurking underneath both traditional "sprawl" planning and "form-based New Urban" planning. Both of those mandate all sorts of things in order to produce what they perceive as a desirable and harmonious "result". But in a real city, there is never a final result, because the city is a living thing and keeps changing as the world changes around it. And that's where the process-based thinking really is necessary, because result-based leads to people thinking that the city has achieved some kind of perfection and demanding that it never change thereafter.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post-75486270781116964572015-05-08T22:21:39.670-04:002015-05-08T22:21:39.670-04:00Thank you all for your comments and your reference...Thank you all for your comments and your references to other process-oriented thinkers.<br /><br />Laurence, I must admit that I made a mistake in writing the last part. I did not mean to claim that I could conceive such a form-based code by myself. I meant that I could conceive that such a code could be developed, I've modified the text to represent my opinion better. Sorry for the misunderstanding, it was clearly a mistake on my part.<br /><br />As to the differences in reality, I think it is significant in fact, because most of the codes I know of in North America ALL try to maintain harmony in the scale of buildings, often mandate similar materials, building lines, etc... I think it is easy to confuse this because in the end, both have to act on the process to change the output, the difference is that planners who focus on the output have a clear idea of how a neighborhood should look, and they will shape the process to obtain that. Meanwhile, a process-focused planner would rather modify the process to include more economic maximization and a less wasteful logic, but not care particularly about what the output actually looks like. From what I have seen, this is extremely rare among actual planners.simval84https://www.blogger.com/profile/10615053214354191224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post-76363793211294516102015-05-08T20:31:31.166-04:002015-05-08T20:31:31.166-04:00Hakim's work is excellent. Here's a collec...Hakim's work is excellent. Here's a collection of articles that sample his themes: http://www.charrettecenter.net/charrettecenter.asp?a=spf&pfk=7&gk=220<br /><br />Another process oriented group with suggestive ideas is Michael Mehaffey and Nikos Salingaros, with the help of Christopher Alexander. See the "Design Methods" section of Mehaffy's bibliography at http://www.tectics.com/Mehaffy_Paper_Archive.htm and Salingaros's collection of articles at http://zeta.math.utsa.edu/~yxk833/contr.arch.html<br /><br />In regard to the original post, I think process and outcome methods can both produce good, attractive, well-suited results. I see much less distinction among practitioners than you suggest; good designers will use either or both approaches depending on the situation and its particular requirements.<br /><br />If you can conceive a better form-based code, you should certainly develop it and present it to the design community, because I imagine it would be very useful for many cities, planners, and designers.Laurence Aurbachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048964167591883788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post-58634540461789908122015-05-07T16:42:16.529-04:002015-05-07T16:42:16.529-04:00And I would also add Besim Hakim, who has basicall...And I would also add Besim Hakim, who has basically made it his life's work to study the processes that produced traditional urbanism (particularly the urbanism of the Mediterranean region), and how those processes might be applicable to contemporary cities. His most recent book, which I have not yet read, appears to address this topic head-on: http://www.amazon.com/Mediterranean-Urbanism-Historic-Building-Processes/dp/9401791392/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1431031168&sr=1-1&keywords=besim+hakimCharlie Gardnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07317335121565650040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4153985804832811048.post-90915488274271676922015-05-07T12:48:32.873-04:002015-05-07T12:48:32.873-04:00I'd add Steve Mouzon to the process-oriented c...I'd add Steve Mouzon to the process-oriented camp too, especially his "Sky Method" which is all about the incremental development approach. http://www.originalgreen.org/blog/the-sky-method.html He's also very much interested in developing updated vernacular architecture (maybe place-based is a better term), which is similar to the broader Japanese city development pattern in that it's the "traditional way" continued through modern times and responding to those modern inputs. Jeffrey Jakucykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04092631645389171565noreply@blogger.com